Return Fire
Papa5murf1
Return Fire is one of the stupidest mechanics in the game. Why? Because remember Phoenix Point is supposed to be a GAME. Games are supposed to be FUN. There is no fun whatsoever in an enemy returning fire every single goddam time i shoot an enemy. It actually puts players OFF shooting the enemy, which is just laughable and totally counter-intuitive.
Marek Poprik
To counter return fire just destroy enemies hand or weapon.. its not so hard once u understand the tactics.. I just recommend to clearly show which enemy returns fire
Don Tanton
Just remove return fire from the game, and replace it with another ability that gives you 1 FREE ATTACK in YOUR TURN, against ONE ENEMY that has SHOT AT YOU during their last turn.
If you cannot keep track of that information, due to program code not knowing, then do a simpler version of it that reads:
The NEXT ATTACK of this character is 1 AP CHEAPER PER ENEMY that attacked/injured this soldier during the enemy turn.
This one you can do with your code, I am pretty sure.
Don Tanton
I just had one enemy shoot off 5 arms from my squad. This mechanic is absolutey bonkers.
Matthew D. Cleveland
Don Tanton: Yep, I had an Anu berzerker return fire with a shotgun three times. He ran 4 AP to get to me, then spent 6 free AP to shoot me three times on my turn.
Matthew D. Cleveland
Return Fire is completely unbalanced and breaks the AP economy (with infinite return shots possible). It also reduces the value of Overwatch.
I would remove the mechanic entirely or make it optional.
Kevin Hill
Kevin Hill
You only get one attack with Overwatch.
Are you talking about Return Fire?
A
Alexandr
Kevin Hill: the same enemy fired at my soldiers 3 or 4 times (I don't remember)
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Alexandr
Kevin Hill: it may have been a return fire, the user interface didn't show me what it was. In any case, shooting more than twice per turn is cheating and not logical. Imagine that the battle took place in real time, as then it will look like a soldier who made a move and returns fire an infinite number of times.
Matt Mercer
Alexandr: Overwatch will fire at soldiers moving through the overwatch cone and will only trigger once, Return Fire will fire back at any soldier that hits them as long as they have ammo and an equipped weapon. I.e. Overwatch triggers on movement, Return Fire triggers on attacks. Enemies that can Return Fire will have a little U-Turn arrow over their icon when targeting them for an attack.
Sounds like Return Fire, unless there's a rare bug which doesn't remove the enemy's overwatch after they fire once.
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Alexandr
Matt Mercer: I realized that overwatch and return fire are two different things. But I think it's better to set a limit of 2 attacks per turn (overwatch and/or return fire), provided that the move was completed with 4 action points.
Matt Mercer
Alexandr: Two attacks in total between all overwatch and return fire for the entire squad for the round, or for that particular soldier/enemy to make? The former seems pretty limiting: if you have more than one of your own soldiers on Overwatch and they all trigger, then it would completely negate any Return Fire your soldiers could perform. Two attacks per turn is at least reasonable, but seems like an arbitrary limiting factor (either going with one by default - which would maybe increase to 2-3 if the soldier also has the Return Fire ability - or infinite generally make more sense).
Personally I think there should be a randomized secondary perk which buffs Overwatch or Return Fire: Overwatch to trigger more than once (but still only once per enemy) and trigger on enemy attacks as well as movement, or Return Fire to trigger on any enemy attacks in range (not just attacks directed at the soldier in question). But that's kind of the opposite philosophy of yours ("more flexible overwatch/return-fire" rather than "there's too much overwatch/return-fire already") :P
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Alexandr
Matt Mercer: You can make a limit of 3-4 shots with return fire. This will be better than unlimited shots.
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Jcheil
I'd just be happy if RF actually worked and triggered EVERY time it should. SO many times my guy SHOULD have returned fire yet sits there with a fully loaded weapon and does nothing.
Mike Ibeji
Jcheil: I recommend you download Pantolomin's 'RF a la carte' mod. It enables you to tweak RF to work the way you prefer it.
Matt Mercer
Mike Ibeji: Unfortunately the only way you can't tweak it is to have soldiers return to cover before return fire triggers, which means high cover (and to a lesser extent low cover) is pointless against enemies with RF and the primary MO remains to just snipe the enemy RF arm/weapon before attacking. But that's something that would need to be tweaked in the base game to even be moddable. But the rest of the mod options are great.
P
PrivateSensibleDataNotForYou
A comment not seen here, done elsewhere. New RF is adding depth, old RF was neglect-able most often because of damages nerf and remove its damages nerfs isn't a basic topic.
New RF allows multiple tools to manage it, instead of simplifying the game by removing it, more tools to manage it and a better balance between the tools is the best way to manage it and even improve more the depth.
Matt Mercer
So for this specific thing, the easy fix here is have whoever took the original shot step back into cover before any Return Fire activates. Simple, effective, thematic.
As for Return Fire as a whole, I'm on the "it was better the old way and just needed tuning" boat (rather than the current "only the target being shot at gets Return Fire", which I feel makes it too easy to negate Return Fire entirely if you kill your target in 1 shot or disable its weapon first). Keep Return Fire as an Overwatch-like ability that lets soldiers/pandorans shoot at enemies who fire at allies, but limit it to soldiers within 10 tiles of the targeted ally or soldiers who are on Overwatch.
Attila Szabó
Matt Mercer: Step back into cover before return fire is a good idea, that would solve the problem.
But anyway, return fire happens at half perception range, so a typical crabby shoots back from 12 tiles only. I would find a useful addition for the assault class to get a skill "Deny reaction" or similar which would negate the return fire. That's another balancing option.
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PrivateSensibleDataNotForYou
Attila Szabó: Step back can be to a position with immunity so no RF. Isn't player supposed to exploit it tactically? Is AI won't look totally stupid to not exploit this possibility?
At first I thought it was a bad solution, but I wonder if there' so many immune positions.
I use sometimes OW+RF against RF, I don't want this broken by this change.
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SpiteAndMalice
Matt Mercer: I agree, step back into cover before return fire makes a lot more sense.
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