Stealth Nerf
under review
Marek Poprik
I think the visual range of the enemy are needed. When your soldier enters stealth, he should see visual cone of the enemies and the awareness circle around them to plan your move. Silenced weapons are crucial too..
MadSkunky
I would like to post my experiences with stealth after the Leviathan Patch here because it is still open and the topic is also "under review". If a new topic should be better, then either let me know briefly or a moderator shifts everything into a new topic.
Basically, I think the changes in Leviarhan are good, the infiltrator class is no longer borderline OP but now just a little bit OP ;-).
A minimum distance to reveal was necessary in my opinion, the old system had something of a kind of godmode that made you almost invincible (with a few exceptions). One can argue about the distance of this revealing, in my opinion it could have been a little less, maybe 3 or 4 tiles instead of 5, but it is definitely better than the old one.
But now to the problems and they mainly concern the reveal after a shot if you do not use a silent weapon:
- In my experience and also what has been described in this topic here, there are no silent weapons in the game, even the crossbows are not.
- If I didn't get it wrong, if you are stealthy and want to fire a shot, you should also get the bonus for "sneak attack" even if you don't use a silent weapon. In the target preview it also looks like you would get it, but after the shot it was found that this was not the case, the opponent received "only" normal damage without a bonus (found out and then tested by myself after this thread in Forum: https://forums.snapshotgames.com/t/infiltrator-double-dmg-not-working-update-with-screenshots/9810, bug report with F12 should be available). This means that you can only get this bonus with indirect fire like with the grenade launcher and use it out of LOS, or ...
- The only way to receive the "sneak attack" bonus regularly with direct fire when you're not revealed is to use the "Echo Head" augmentation and then with any weapon, because this augmentation makes all weapons silent. This augmentation can only be used if you have the DLC "Blood and Titanium". Very bad! (If I did not own the DLC, I would probably think of other words here, because in my opinion the whole class without DLC is more or less completely undervalued if not worthless)
- Another point regarding "vanish":
As I understood it, the status "vanish" should have an effect on the entire turn, also during the opponent's turn, and so I remembered it before the patch. But now the status is ended as soon as you finish your turn and you are not vanished during the entire opposing turn. I don't think that is the intention.
PS: since English is not my native language, I created this text using the google translator and some editing. I hope everything is understandable and if not, please make a note.
V
Voland
MadSkunky the problem with silent weapons is that actually there are no silent weapons in the game, and only the "echo" skill that some tritons have and is now available to the player as a bionic actually makes any weapon silent.
For vanish I understand that the way it works now was intended, to avoid abuse.
John Gonon figured this out before the dlc was announced, but it seems like the issue hasn't been taken care of yet.
MadSkunky
Voland
Where do you see the abuse for vanish after this patch? I think the possibilities are quite limited now due to the 5-tiles reveal. If an opponent comes too close in his turn, you are badly trapped.
Because of the silent weapons, yes I read it and also hinted myself ("and also what has been described in this topic here") but I wanted to point out that it is not different even after the patch, but now together with the problem of the damage bonus gets really bad ... without the Echo Head.
V
Voland
MadSkunky: to be honest, I'm not sure how vanish would have worked with the current stealth system if it hadn't been changed. For tritons pain chamaleon skill (which I assume works like vanish) I have noticed that now they can completely disappear in the mist (they are not revealed even if you stand right next to them).
Anyway, they really have to fix the silent weapons issue, and there is a host of other issues with sound detection that John Gonon related. (I keep mentioning him and his findings in the hope the devs will take a look at them).
MadSkunky
Voland: The 5-tiles rule seems only be implemented for Infiltrator stealth and for that also if you use vanish.
For tritons it is as before, you have to go close to 1 tile to reveal them even out of mist, no change here. Not revealed when they chameloen in the mist? I think that was also the case before the patch but im not sure at this point.
MadSkunky
Today i tested many with vanish an I have to correct myself. Voland, your assume that it works like pain chameleon is very close.
What I have found about vanish:
- When a squaddie is vanished then he will NOT revealed by close enemy units, in fact you can move to a tile right next to an enemy without getting revealed (no auto reveal like pain chameleon).
- Only shooting a loud weapon (at the moment all firearms) will reveal him if he not have the Echo Head.
- Melee attacks doesn't reveal him.
And for this i for sure accept, that vanish is only active in the players turn and stops at the start of the enemies turn.
Vanish is almost the same as it was before Leviathan with the exception of loosing stealth when you use non silent weapons and don't have the Echo Head. Very strong ...
C
Clayton Cross
To me it seems like, we should get improved visualization first so we can see just how broken stealth is once people actually know how to use it. As it is it takes someone really digging into the system to understand it in order to explot it so is likely not exployted much by the majority. That bing the case, the only poeple really using it might not care that the play style is so powerful because it comes online so late in the game, it just makes it worth the wait.
Kevin Hill
under review
Ulysses Crawford
Just to add that it makes no sense to have a stealthed infiltrator opening doors automatically (which reveals his/her location)
Kevin Hill
in progress
Some changes are being made to the stealth system. Units will be revealed if they are within 5 times.
Attacking with a non-silenced weapon will reveal the actor. If the actor is not within line of site, their location will be marked with audio location.
W
Wendek
Kevin Hill: So does it mean that Infiltrator-Sniper will not work at all anymore after a single shot? (I assume none of the sniper rifles are considered "silenced") Are you still considered "revealed" if you're only marked as an audio location?
Matt Mercer
Kevin Hill:
Will there be a new weapon stat/indicator for whether a weapon is "silenced", or will we still just be going on the assumption that only the Synedrion crossbows and all melee weapons (including the "Bash" action) are silent?
As a follow-up, will there be other silenced weapons added (potentially variants of the base PX weapons with silencers, or a PX-branded crossbow) after researching the Infiltrator class and/or both Synedrion crossbows?
P
PrivateSensibleDataNotForYou
Kevin Hill: This will probably fix very high health to have them only useful not OP. That said another topic is Vanish, it is currency breaking various aspects but remove it will probably break Infiltrator.
Altair Faltore
Wendek: Synedrion sniper rifle is silenced so is all of their other weaponry
T
Torinus
Wendek: You will always have Vanish to use as it is a 0 AP action.
P
PrivateSensibleDataNotForYou
Torinus: In fact Vanish is a different topic and I'll open it if none target it already. Stealth problem was that 100% Stealth was making immune to almost everything, but worms and Chirons.
John Gonon
Matt Mercer: Crossbows are not silent weapons in this game. Hopefully they will become silent.
John Gonon
Altair Faltore: I've tested lots of weapons and none is silenced.
Matt Mercer
John Gonon:
Since this is the case, now stealth and weapon noise (stealth penalty for firing) makes even less sense to me :P I had been operating under the assumption that crossbows had a smaller stealth penalty than other weapons because 1) IRL crossbows are silent and 2) they are the Infiltrator's standard weapon. I hope a stat for "stealth penalty" gets added to weapons, or a clear on/off indicator for "this weapon is silent and has a very low stealth penalty when fired".
John Gonon
Matt Mercer: I thought they were silenced too. But when I saw that Pandorans seemed to know where the shot came from, I patched the game to print the "silenced" tag and saw that no weapon (among those I tested) is silenced. However, the Triton has a mutation that enables it to shoot any weapon while remaining undetected (pray that it's not using an SR).
S
Stuart Procter
Altair Faltore: Is this true? I thought it was just the crossbow that is silent.
D
Djoles77
I have 3 points regard this topic:
- Imo cover should have effect on stealth. If infiltrator is in cover it would be ok to be 99% stealth but only from some angles. If flanked ofc the is no bonus from cover.
- Weapons should have impact on stealth like armor does. So heavy weapon -10 stealth points imo. Stealth PP weapons should be added too.
- Also enemy should be able to see infiltrator if on adjacent field regardless stealth percentage (same as triton).
Barleyman
Probably it'd be enough to prioritise stealth contacts for launchers, infiltrators are pretty fragile. I definitely blow up or spray sound contacts since that's 100% accurate most of the time. Stealth snipers are problem for you as well, a Triton with a sniper rifle is bad but at least it doesn't do 2x damage. Plus the player can use 'hunt unseen target' - algorithm.
Mike Ibeji
God yes! max possible stealth should be around 75-80%
T
Torinus
That stealth perk needs to be removed or Infiltrator passive bonus reduced (and maybe even his gear).
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