No Return Fire for Melee
complete
Hamadraith
Return fire in melee is too OP. It's point blank range, and unless you're attacking after their weapon is destroyed, they will hit every shot, and in some cases kill a full health attacker. So I was thinking it would be great if it didn't trigger against melee weapons. (I say this because if it just requires you being next to them that's an exploit waiting to happen)
Vit Barta
complete
Danforth Update - v 1.0.58746 - 11/06/2020
Status Effect Interactions
Melee attacks don’t trigger return fire.
Андрей Бабинов
The problem is then your assault won't return fire vs meele as well. It really protect them well vs meele. And usually you just shot off enemy's weapon/arm(50 HP, no armor) before that.
Serge
Current Return fire makes zero sense and should be removed or at least have it on limited enemies instead of on EVERY enemy with machine gun (and have it shoot only ONCE per turn ahead of the character). Currently it makes game less fun, because instead of having fun of shooting from cover you have to find a ways to counter return fire in close range: a) kill enemy with one shot. b) destroy arm or weapon c) shoot from sniper range c) try to daze etc
Matt Mercer
Serge: This feels like more of a comment for https://phoenixpoint.canny.io/feedback/p/return-fire since this doesn't have to do with melee triggering RF.
Vit Barta
in progress
In the next patch, we will fix/improve status effect interactions. One of the changes is that melee attacks will not trigger return fire.
Florin Adrian
This mod might help if you want to change return fire behaviour: https://www.nexusmods.com/phoenixpoint/mods/40
Tim Vit
Yeah, especially you got Zero damage bug and lost your soldier on return fire.
Inner Enigma
Somebody did suggest at one point making heavy weapons and sniper rifles having an aim penalty at close range. Which if we are going to realism I’m inclined to agree, but it sounds like a bit of extra works for the devs to add that for every weapon In the game.
Maybe instead we can add an attribute to speed where every point dedicated to the state will decrease accuracy against that specific unit
Ex: a unit with 10 speed will have a 10% accuracy decrease from shots taken during enemy overwatch and return fire. (You can also add that to enemies as well were pandorans with high speed state are hard to hit with overwatch).
Matt Mercer
Inner Enigma:
Unfortunately neither of these will work, PP models projectiles individually and accuracy is basically just a cone of bullet spread possibility. It's not an RNG hit/miss chance like XCOM where you can just modify that dice roll based on who/what you're targeting.
Hamadraith
Also, I don't know that much about coding, but it seems like it wouldn't be that hard to take the weapon attacks that do melee and make it so that return fire doesn't trigger.
Inner Enigma
Matt Mercer: snipers quick aim ability use to give a small buff to accuracy before they nerfed it. what I was suggesting with enhancing the speed stat is essentially a passive reversal of the ballistic cone but only for return fire and overwatch shots as the specific unit is moving.
Matt Mercer
Inner Enigma:
Ah, yeah fair enough that would work since RF and Overwatch, when triggered, have a specific target rather than allowing the player to ambiguously free-aim.
P
PrivateSensibleDataNotForYou
Inner Enigma: The problem is a lot more complex than it seems at first. Player point of view, constraints from ballistic system, realism aspect (it's not stealth attack with a cut throat knife, it's run in a field with guns and long range weapons everywhere), facing system half implemented, perhaps more. It's weird I thought, looks like an obvious change, but it's far from it.
LouisdeFuines
@Inner Enimga
Don`t have heavy weapons an aim penalty already? ;-)
Inner Enigma
LouisdeFuines: the mechanic I was thinking of would only debuff shots during overwatch and return fire and would only be influenced by the target enemies overall speed state. Aiming with a heavy weapon during your turn would not debuff the aim further as the unit is standing still. I just though off adding a unique attribute to the speed state as I find it a little lacking compared to strength and will.
Walter Ivan Toso
Assault+ReturnFire+Shotgun is one of the best way to deal with Crabs and stuff attacking you in close combat. If you run against a crab with a stick and get trashed by its return fire, it isn't it being OP, it is you playing a turn based STRATEGY, wrong.
Hamadraith
Walter Ivan Toso: You act as though I don't understand the meaning of strategy. Like I want to fix this because I just equip my guys with melee weapons and then cry that they die. This is not the case... entirely. I did put it down because I tried to paralyze an arthron with the melee thing and got killed. I realized that it really just nerfed melee if you can't take it against certain enemies, and I also employed the shotgun to the face technique. I realized that if you just keep melee weapons from triggering return fire, a whole world for strategy opens up. Now instead of just getting close because I'll pretty much kill any arthron who attacks, I'm going to stay back so I don't get shredded by melee. Now I can move in closer to attack, assured that I won't trigger return fire instead of disabling his shooting arm in one shot. I've given it thought, and it's not just a knee jerk reaction to, "My guys are dead and I can't play this game anymore boo hoo." Also I don't understand why people think I'm complaining. I'm giving a suggestion because I think it'll make the game better. You wouldn't say the same thing to the guys who want rifles relevant again would you?
Walter Ivan Toso
Hamadraith: making enemies stay put and get hammered when your guys if engaged in melee can return fire doesn't make sense. It is a just "please make the game easier" straight away. If both enemies and your operatives can't return fire in melee you are just killing one of the best perks of the skill. As I said return fire + shotgun works like a charm. Melee needs some tweaks but nerfing a cool skill isn't a solution. "A whole world of strategies opens up"...ehm...running in front of a enemy and kill it on the spot isn't a strategy, is super easy walkthrough. Having to disarm and then engage is a strategy. If it was enough to field 8 berserker and hammer all the way to the endgame, the class would be not balanced. Synergy between classes with different specialisations is the balance. Capturing Pandorans has to be more difficult than kill them, it is logic, and it gives achievement when you make it. So...yeah...it feels like you are complaining.
Hamadraith
Walter Ivan Toso: So, one of the best perks of the skill is negating melee? Melee currently has no advantages. Even if it did this skill negates those advantages. You act like with the nerf you can just one shot melee kill, and say that you like the one shot shotgun kill. You know capturing should be more difficult, not almost impossible, and I also suppose you forgot that snipers and rifles exist that can paralyze as well? Also, if it didn't get nerfed I would have no problem, why? Because that means that the devs intended for you to be able to one shot an arthron on return fire. Now you act like what I'm asking for is game breaking, but it isn't if you think of the logistics and the fact that it's impossible to one shot an arthron with a melee weapon. If it's not balanced then the devs will discover that. I don't appreciate you insinuating that this is a complaint, and not a suggestion on what I sincerely believe to be something that could make the game better. It's insincere and insulting. Especially to those who agree with me. Because you're insinuating that we're all just complainers who don't want to play the game as it was intended to be played which is just not true.
Walter Ivan Toso
Hamadraith: I paralyzed all enemy types in melee with the first paralyzer you get in game, telling that is impossible is an iperbole. You know that damaging/disabling body parts lower the paralysis threshold? I used melee too and having to soften targets with return fire was totally fine. One shot melee needs to be linked to a skill like rage burst for firearms, as for example the ability to one shot with shotguns is subordinated to target armour, again balance. I am not insinuating, I am stating that I read it like a complaint, that is my feeling, and there isn't much to discuss about personal feelings, maybe it is how you write. No insult given so you shouldn't take one.
Hamadraith
Walter Ivan Toso: Sorry, I perceived an insult when there was none and got extremely defensive. It's how I act, and I apologize for it. So, first I'd like to state that the paralysis was what made me do it, not the sole reason for having it. Also, I just think it would make the game better, but again, if it isn't what the devs want I'm okay without it.
J
Jcheil
Perhaps make it so when you perform a melee attack you are given a additional AP after the attack to "move away" a bit (before the return fire shot) which makes sense because it will take the defender a few seconds to get his weapon ready to return the fire.
However, I think in a real military scenario it IS balanced (and I think most of PP is "close" to real military). Melee should always be considered a 2nd skill or an emergency skill. Almost as a last resort before just tucking tail and running. In a real military situation I am only going to try to melee attack someone with a club or a knife if I absolutely know that I am going to 100% kill them on the first hit - period. I can't take the chance that they will be able to counterstrike with anything. Otherwise I would not even try it.
Mark Richards
I was sorry when return fire was changed from the initial release design. I don't want it weakened any further.
Hamadraith
Mark Richards: It's hard for me to phrase this, but I'm not focused on it as a nerf. Rather this is to fix the balance of the game because of the negatives on melee. You don't deal enough damage, and you can't attack the ranged arthrons once they get return fire. There may be ways to buff return fire to make it better, but I think this needs to happen to make melee more viable.
Mark Richards
Hamadraith: Melee is a novelty in the current build, that's for sure.
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